Featured Home Page DiscussionHave You Been Affected By The Nessie Update? 5,000 of you have! 11:11 am on Mar 15, 2013 (gmt 0) For those wondering what may, or may not, be happening with their AdSense arrows (Nessie).
User Mike in adsense forum get response from Adsense support:
"""Thank you for your email.
On Friday 9th, a change went out that removed the arrow button (Nessie) from the text ads appearing on about ~5000 publishers websites. These publishers possibly intentionally or unintentionally have ad implementations that mislead users as measured by the rate of accidental clicks. For these publishers we will continue to serve ads but we have removed the arrow button. These changes are meant to optimize the experience for advertisers, publishers and users alike. Some of these publishers may see fluctuations in their CPCs, CTRs and/or RPMs from smart pricing due to these implementations.
We have put together this FAQ:
Q. Why is the button no longer on my website?
A. Our systems have determined that some ad elements in text ads implemented on your site are not performing well for users, advertisers, and/or the publish network, therefore, the arrow button may not display on your ads moving forward. Different ad elements may or may not appear in text ads depending on what is deemed best performing for users, advertisers, and publishers. We believe these changes will encourage advertisers to spend more on the network, and lift earnings for our publisher clients in the long term.
Q. Why was the button removed from all the pages of my website?
A. Our systems have determined that some ad elements in text ads implemented on your site are not performing well for users, advertisers, and/or the publish network, therefore, the arrow button may not display on your ads moving forward. Different ad elements may or may not appear in text ads depending on what is deemed best performing for users, advertisers, and publishers. We believe these changes will encourage advertisers to spend more on the network, and in our publisher clients in the long term.
Q. Why has my CTR gone down?
A. Clicks/CTR are largely a factor of ad type, ad rendering and ad placement amongst others. Depending on the performance of an ad unit we may change how ads are rendered to prevent accidental clicks. You may want to check your ad implementations as they may be causing users to take unintended actions. Please see How you can help to prevent invalid activity for more.
Q. Why has my CPC gone down?
A Many factors determine the performance of an ad including CTR, CPC, user intent, advertiser ROI, and others. While we can?t draw specific conclusions about your site, in general our algorithms are designed to optimize and reflect the value users and advertisers are receiving from specific ad placements.
Q. Why has my Revenue/RPM gone down?
A.. Many factors determine the performance of an ad including CTR, CPC, user intent, advertiser ROI, and others. While we can?t draw specific conclusions about your site, in general our algorithms are designed to optimize and reflect the value users and advertisers are receiving from specific ad placements.
Q. Can I do anything specific to get the button text back?
A. No. While we can?t draw specific conclusions about your site, in general our algorithms are designed to optimize and reflect the value users and advertisers are receiving from specific ad placements. This can change over time and may or may not include additional ad elements like the clickable button.
Our internal team is working on this now and will have more information on the network wide impact of these changes.
Thank you for your understanding. "
1:17 pm on Mar 15, 2013 (gmt 0) One of 2 sites I manage is affected (no grey arrows). It's a very high volume traffic site. My other site, small traffic like 10K pageviews a month is unaffected. 1:50 pm on Mar 15, 2013 (gmt 0) Yep, arrows gone from my site also. Earnings have fallen about 50%. I'm slightly positive that smart pricing will iron out my earnings to normal levels after a while, it's just reflecting the drop in clicks at present. jpch
msg:4555282
2:17 pm on Mar 15, 2013 (gmt 0) 5000 sites is less than 0.25% of sites running AdSense...just trying to put this in perspective of the bigger picture. 2:25 pm on Mar 15, 2013 (gmt 0) Nope.
Yea, the fact that there's only 5000 seems odd to me, it's such a statistically small percentage of AdSense sites. I wonder how they found them and determined they had to turn off the arrows?
2:44 pm on Mar 15, 2013 (gmt 0) > I wonder how they found them and determined they had to turn off the arrows?
I clicked through to a gallery site the other day that appeared to not have any navigation links at all, just a couple of AdSense ads. If I didn't know better, the AdSense arrows would be the thing I'd click to advance to the next page. Pure MFA. My hunch is Google went after high CTR sites and niches abusing the navigation angle.
3:18 pm on Mar 15, 2013 (gmt 0) .25% of sites but most likely those are the higher traffic sites, so a much higher percent of search traffic than .25%. 3:26 pm on Mar 15, 2013 (gmt 0) I don't know if I believe that 5,000 publisher number. My site that was affected, even with the arrows which definitely helped CTR still had a very low CTR. But it is so high volume that the sheer amount of "invalid clicks" must be what caught Google's attention. Honestly, the text ad relevance dip is a much bigger impact on my bottom line than the loss of the arrows. 3:31 pm on Mar 15, 2013 (gmt 0) Interesting that the system allowed turning of this feature on a site by site basis.
I guess it's more or less the reverse of turning on Beta features for select sites.
3:40 pm on Mar 15, 2013 (gmt 0) Arrow is misleading? Eureka! It's like putting a big arrow on your shop and then wonder why your customers go to the neighboring shop.
It seems I'm one of those 5000, I just realized that there are no arrows on my site.
Our systems have determined that some ad elements in text ads implemented on your site are not performing well
They are damn right.
...ad implementations that mislead... One of my 728x90s has a small news box on the right side. I guess users thought (or google thought that users thought) the arrow is pointing to the box and clicked the box instead of the ad.
levo
msg:4555335
3:52 pm on Mar 15, 2013 (gmt 0) Lost the arrows (never liked them) and can't find any arrows on competitors' websites. 4:14 pm on Mar 15, 2013 (gmt 0) Also wonder why they named them after the Loch Ness Monster. 4:29 pm on Mar 15, 2013 (gmt 0) I didn't like the look of the arrows, but the extra money was nice while it lasted. 6:33 pm on Mar 15, 2013 (gmt 0) Still have arrows, yet no real increase in income since they were introduced. Who wants my arrows for free? I'll send them ASAP. :) 7:03 pm on Mar 15, 2013 (gmt 0) If I didn't know better, the AdSense arrows would be the thing I'd click to advance to the next page. Pure MFA. My hunch is Google went after high CTR sites and niches abusing the navigation angle.
Interesting observation. One that had not occurred to me. When Nessie came out my CTR definitely rose. The layout of my site has always been the same and hasn't changed since I launched it on Oct 2nd.
My site layout has longer pages, about 3-4 screens worth for each item. At the top is a leaderboard, about half way down there is a leadboard. At the bottom was a rectangle (now removed).
The ads were placed in the open (no border), while the content areas are bordered. I've now added blue rounded borders around ads, so that it's clear what part is the ad. A bit late though.
If someone thought the arrow took them to more content, I can see that. Hadn't occurred to me, but that makes a lot of sense.
I'm one of those people who eliminates ad javascript when a page is viewed from any of my own ip addresses and the ip addresses of my employees. I never wanted anyone to click on our own ads.
[edited by: Chris13 at 7:16 pm (utc) on Mar 15, 2013]
7:15 pm on Mar 15, 2013 (gmt 0) I only wish they would get rid of all the ads in French and Spanish on my site. Most of my visitors are from the U.S. 8:30 pm on Mar 15, 2013 (gmt 0) Would be better if we received this kind of notifications instead of their unhelpful suggestions. Only after reading this post I discovered that the arrows are gone from my site. 9:22 pm on Mar 15, 2013 (gmt 0) I didn't like the button arrows when they first started appearing, but I like them now because they've increased our CTR. As others have said, 5,000 out of something like 2 million Adsense publishers is a drop in the bucket. 10:55 pm on Mar 15, 2013 (gmt 0) My solution to this is just to ride it out. Google can easily see my page design before and after Nessie and see that the page design hasn't changed one bit and that my ad implementation didn't change until after figuring this out.
I expect it will take a few months for everything to settle down. I've probably lost advertisers over this and only time will bring them back, if ever.
At least now I understand it and can move forward.
CTR now is well below that of before Nessie. While this change is for 5,000 sites, the message is for all 2,000,000 and if you have an increased CTR, I'd be double checking my layouts for any positioning where people would think there might be more content on that arrow button. Just my opinion.
12:09 am on Mar 16, 2013 (gmt 0) Also wonder why they named them after the Loch Ness Monster. "Update? What update? You're imagining things. There was no update." 12:59 am on Mar 16, 2013 (gmt 0) The arrow definitely increased the earnings on my high traffic site, by a huge margin. December/January were my biggest months ever.
Now that it's gone, the text ad CTR & CPC is laughable in comparison.
1:42 am on Mar 16, 2013 (gmt 0) I have a high traffic site that lost arrows. Very high earnings while they were on. I don't know why Adsense didn't turn arrows off system-wide but instead singled out specific sites. This must be one hell of a manual job - 1. Find 2. Block. 2:33 am on Mar 16, 2013 (gmt 0) Still have the arrows. But CTR & CPC went down in the last couple of days. 12:27 pm on Mar 16, 2013 (gmt 0) 4:23 pm on Mar 16, 2013 (gmt 0) i would not believe anything that google says - 5000 is just a number they are happy to announce they messed up with. 7:14 pm on Mar 16, 2013 (gmt 0) Have You Been Affected By The Nessie Update? Yes!
You better watch out And it's best not to cry No reason to pout Wish I could tell you why Google has me shaking my head
I've checked all my ads, And I'm checking them twice; Getting rid of those that are naughty not nice. Google has me shaking my head
They see you when you're clicking They know where you have shopped Google knows when you are bad or good But either way the revenue stopped
No changes to the layout, the site left alone My clicks have disappeared enough to make me moan Google has me shaking Google has me shaking Google has me shaking my head
Sorry, I do feel better now though.
9:41 am on Mar 21, 2013 (gmt 0) Same here as supergml. I still have the arrows but CTR and CPC went down. levo
msg:4557303
2:52 am on Mar 22, 2013 (gmt 0) Got arrows back today & earnings dropped 50%.
Featured Home Page DiscussionNegative Keywords Big list vs Small List 6:21 pm on Mar 24, 2013 (gmt 0) Can a VERY big list of well thought out negative keywords have a very positive impact on an account?
I read elsewhere of people using thousands of negative keywords to improve the performance of AdWords accounts and before I go off and do more research, I like to check in here first.
For instance, can a negative keyword have a positive impact even if it isn't showing up in the SQR (Search Query Report) or as it is now termed the MSQ (Matched Search Query through Analytics)?
We all know about the positive use of general negatives like job and resume and such (for non-job related sites) but will these type words have a positive impact even if they aren't actually driving those inadvertent clicks?
I think it would - because it would lower inappropriate impressions - which in theory will improve CTR and cost per conversion.
Agree or disagree? And why?
7:03 pm on Mar 24, 2013 (gmt 0) Agree, because QS is primarily based on CTR, getting rid of irrelevant imps, helps. 7:55 pm on Mar 24, 2013 (gmt 0) others (on another channel) seem to disagree that negatives have minimal to no impact on QS... 10:17 pm on Mar 24, 2013 (gmt 0) Well let's use our heads and figure this one out... lets take a precise example and there are plenty of them. 1. You have a search term "Portsmouth Real Estate". and you are in Virginia selling Portsmouth, Va real estate. 2. When someone in Portsmouth, NH searches for Portsmouth Real Estate and your ad comes up "Portsmouth, Va Homes for sale and another realtors ad comes up "Portsmouth, NH homes for sale"... whose ad will normally get clicked.... of course if the person is really looking for real estate in NH... the won't click the Va ad.... so we just got an impression that's very unlikely to get clicked.. every time that happens.. "impression and no click".. your QS suffers a little bit more... not only that, I don't want him to click my ad and make me pay a dollar since he won't buy from me anyway... so not only did I lose QS score points it cost me a freaking buck cause I did not use negative keywords effectively... I should have all states but my own in the negative box.. so that alone is 51 negative keywords right off the bat... Make sense? 10:30 pm on Mar 24, 2013 (gmt 0) Thanks TommyTX, logically I totally agree that this type of approach will improve the performance, hands down.
...however in your particular case, I don't think negatives would prevent the search from showing as the searcher didn't enter a state name - more like geotargeting would help but that's a different subject.
Marketing wise, yes, using negative state names in that general case makes a lot of sense.
Where I'm going with this is the going consensus (that I'm trying to confirm or disconfirm) seems to be that QS applies only to exact match queries, so negatives that eliminate broad match impressions don't apply.
1:40 pm on Mar 25, 2013 (gmt 0) it simply comes down to CTR, as it appears you have already identified. I have run numerous experiments that shows data to backup the theory that improved CTR increases QS, and improved QS lowers CPC. Your original question was does a large negative list "...have a very positive impact on an account?"... According to my experiments I would say yes as I am defining "...a very positive impact..." as a lower cost with higher conversions. For instance... I have a DUI Attorney client located in LA, and when they came to me their average CPC for the LA County area was $46.00 a click... after I included a larger negative keyword list we saw an immediate reductions in CPC of $6.00 that first week. After continuing to make adjustments to their Ad Groups to make them more relevant and also restructering their ad variations we saw their QS increase 1-2 points for their main keywords and their CPC drop another $6.00 the following week as well.
hope this helps...
1:56 pm on Mar 25, 2013 (gmt 0) I've been seeing it too, for sure.
I've been picking off the bad ones for years and enjoying the benefits.
I always wondered if there was any data proving or disproving that pre-emptive negative keywords (those not found in detailed search query reports) also had a positive impact.
I'm trying to get some insight about the rifle-shot type of management where you are picking off negatives that you know vs the blindly eliminating tons of words that you don't see in query reports.
4:08 pm on Mar 25, 2013 (gmt 0) It is more complicated than we're all saying, of course.
For exact match, for example, negs shouldn't matter.
And the QS shown is for the exact match version of your other match types, so there's data you don't see - your QS for a non-exact match.
Eliminating searches you know don't convert well enough, makes sense whether if affects QS or not.
5:02 pm on Mar 25, 2013 (gmt 0) Rodger that RF!
Other reading suggests there are at least 2 QS type metrics - that which is shown (like toolbar PR) and that which is what is really going on (much like what we learn in advanced backlink analysis).
Fortunately, we have a reasonably decent view of what we're told are the actual queries, and that presently isn't being obscured as much as it once was.
Thinking this through (with all your help of course) has brought me to think up an advanced negative test case which I'll be running to see if I can boost ROI.
7:45 pm on Mar 25, 2013 (gmt 0) Heh I've worked on accounts where I've run up against the limit on negative keywords (at one point it was 5000, not sure if it's changed - I don't work on that account anymore)
Part of the problem was really really broad terms that could mean one of a dozen things, and part was because the client had let it their display network campaign run pretty much on autopilot for years and years and there was a lot of cleaning up to do.
8:27 pm on Mar 25, 2013 (gmt 0) Hi Netmeg - thanks for chiming in!
Where's eWhisper when you need him?
8:23 pm on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) It seems there's two sides to this discussion - one is control and the other is QS.
As for control; negatives are amazing. We have many accounts with more than 100k negatives in them (and some are often 1 million - don't try this without the API). Google changed the negative keyword max from 5000 to virtually unlimited a while ago. These large negative lists are mostly for control - not for QS reasons.
From a control standpoint, you might use negatives to block ads from showing in one ad group so they show in another one. This is common when you have ad groups that are general (say website hosting); others that are discount based (cheap website hosting); and others that are specific (vps website hosting). By using your negatives to 'shape' which ad shows; your overall CTR and conversion rates should go up. In fact, if you don't use negatives in that situation, you will probably have some of the 'wrong' ads shown; and if someone is looking for a VPS, you never want to show them a general hosting ad. So using negatives for ad shaping based around what type of ad the end user should be seeing is essential in many accounts.
There are many ways you can control ad displays in this way; like some companies have absolute monthly budgets. So you might have an brand, exact, phrase match, and broad/modified broad campaigns. In this case, you'll spend all you can on your broad, exact, and phrase and use the broad to help you hit run rates. To make this work; you need all of your phrase match words as negatives in the broad campaign; and all your exact match words as negatives in the phrase campaigns.
For larger accounts, I'm a huge fan of the negative keyword lists as I often find that the negatives are not applied correctly to multiple campaigns. If you download your campaign negatives, and put them in a pivot table - look at how many negatives you have by campaign - seeing high level numbers can be enlightening.
From control to QS... So negative words won't directly affect individual word QSs as they are only calculated when the query matches the word. However, part of QS is overall QS for the account. What negatives will do is block these irrelevant queries so that you don't show for low CTR terms that don't matter for you, and then the entire account's CTR/QS will go up; which then indirectly helps a keyword's QS used in the auction. Its a bit convoluted, and since overall history isn't that huge of a deal for most accounts; the odds of you actually noticing negatives helping QS is pretty low.
So, I do find negatives are very important; but they are more essential from ensuring the correct ad shows for each query as opposed to trying to eek out slightly higher quality scores.
8:39 pm on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) Looking at massive numbers of MSQ terms has been quite eye opening indeed. And this is on well managed (manual) accounts. We'll be seeing some nice performance improvements as a result of this deep dive I figured out how to do.
I also get to look at Marin data occasionally but I don't know the tool well enough - does Marin and other auto management tools automatically mine and apply negatives? Do you trust it?
2:26 pm on Mar 28, 2013 (gmt 0) Now if we could just get G to show us the kw's imps w/o any clicks... :-) 2:33 pm on Mar 28, 2013 (gmt 0) @RhinoFish ... exactly! been wanting that for some time now as well! 2:38 pm on Mar 28, 2013 (gmt 0) don't expect it anytime soon... but there are ways! 2:53 pm on Mar 28, 2013 (gmt 0) @chewy ... I'm looking into my keyword details report now, and am seeing a few search terms with impressions but no clicks (never noticed this before), but is there another way that you are referring to? Thanks! 3:33 pm on Mar 28, 2013 (gmt 0) Pretty much proprietary - some big houses claim they can see it - experience in looking at billions of words across various performance metrics is the thing that becomes valuable. Just keep looking. 8:00 pm on Mar 28, 2013 (gmt 0) If your account is in an MCC; you can easily get 0 click data.
If you run the search term report from the MCC; there's still the old option to include '0 impression' data' which will give you all the queries with 0 clicks but have impressions.
2:02 am on Mar 29, 2013 (gmt 0) If you have nothing to do for a couple of hours, read this for a mind boggling argument on what is and what is not true on quality score. [rimmkaufman.com...] Wow! That even made me weary about QS...But no matter what google says, I will never be convinced that Negative keyword used correctly will NOT indirectly raise the quality score of you entire campaign. IT WILL! Since we know for a fact that bad impressions will decrease, and CTR WILL increase... it has to since you are showing more ads that are more likely to get clicked... and if CTR goes up so will your QS.... its easily proven... Simply take any account with the QS averages pretty stable.. apply very careful and correct negative keywords.. a nd watch you QS overall go up... it will happen... 1:32 pm on Mar 29, 2013 (gmt 0) Didn't have time to read EVERY word of the article, but I find it funny that that the article title says "NEGATIVE KEYWORDS DO NOT AFFECT GOOGLE ADWORDS QUALITY SCORES"...yet the final comment by "Google Adwords Help" says..."Matthew Mierzejewski has also written a fantastic post on this topic and detailed how negative keywords impact Quality Score."...hmmm? Two articles that contradict each other? There wasn't a link to the latter so I could read that article...just found it humorous.
Taking all this in, and reviewing the original question again from chewy, I'm still of the belief that even though the QS of broad match terms are based off of it's exact match we would still see a slight increase in QS, OVER TIME, as our CTR would get better as we continue to add negatives as this would, as chewy stated earlier, "lower inappropriate impressions".
4:11 pm on Mar 29, 2013 (gmt 0) eWhisper, thanks, I didn't know that was still there! Always learning!
When combing Placements, the external report makes it harder to take actions, but still, great tip!
I wish they'd have this available at the account level.
4:13 pm on Mar 29, 2013 (gmt 0) eWhisper, aren't I looking for "0 clicks", not "0 imps"?
(yep, question for myself, will run and see)
4:48 pm on Mar 29, 2013 (gmt 0) Hmmm... thanks eWhisper... just ran a report from here and also added a filter to remove all terms with clicks so I could simply see terms that have impressions with no clicks... I immediately saw 3 terms that have generated around 400 impressions each over the past 90 days that haven't generated a single click. 2 of them I can see need to have improved Ad Ranking, but one is a definite candidate for removal...Thanks!
@RhinoFish ...you were saying "I wish they'd have this available at the account level."... When I just ran this report it appears that they offer the ability to select "Account and Campaigns" as a radio button. After you select it it opens your entire MCC where you can navigate to the account and/or campaign that you need...
6:53 pm on Mar 29, 2013 (gmt 0) Seems to work even without MCC but with some limitations that seem to apply even when viewing via MCC. Super nice! 7:04 pm on Mar 31, 2013 (gmt 0) "@RhinoFish ...you were saying "I wish they'd have this available at the account level."... When I just ran this report it appears that they offer the ability to select "Account and Campaigns" as a radio button. After you select it it opens your entire MCC where you can navigate to the account and/or campaign that you need..."
It lets you select for the report, correct, but it's an external report, meaning you can't click a result and convert it into a negative keyword, you're not in the account when viewing the report, you're in exported data.
Featured Home Page DiscussionGoogle Pressurises Sweden To Drop The Word "Ungoogleable" 5:13 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0) LOL This is a crazy situation to be in.
The Language Council of Sweden has dropped the term "ungoogleable" from its list of new words, following pressure from Google to adapt its definition to something more flattering for the company. According to Sveriges Radio, Google wanted the meaning of the term ogooglebar ? which describes something "that you can't find on the web with the use of a search engine" ? to be altered so that it would only describe searches performed using Google's own search, something that the Language Council was not willing to do.
Language Council head Ann Cederberg said engaging Google's lawyers took "too much time and resources," prompting it to remove the phrase from its 2012 list of new words. But that won't be the last you hear of it. Cederberg is well aware that "ungoogleable" is already a popular word in Sweden, and Google will not be able to stop locals from using it.Google Pressurises Sweden To Drop The Word "Ungoogleable" [theverge.com]
5:55 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0) One term that is not "ungoogleable" is "Streisand Effect".
Mountain View needs to hire some smarter lawyers.
....
6:52 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0) 6:57 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0) At least there was no z , my speelchucker thinks that there should be..:)
re Google applying pressure about "ungoogleable/ogooglebar..
doubleplusungood ..
[edited by: Leosghost at 7:01 pm (utc) on Mar 26, 2013]
7:01 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0) Sweden got a cease and desist letter?
:)
7:16 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0) 11:00 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0) It's a trademark issue. To protect their Google trademark, they need to keep "google" from being used generically to describe search.
From the article, my emphasis added... Google wanted the meaning of the term ogooglebar ? which describes something "that you can't find on the web with the use of a search engine" ? to be altered so that it would only describe searches performed using Google's own search, something that the Language Council was not willing to do. I'm assuming that the wording would be legally OK if it were something like...
...something "that you can't find on the web using Google" or... ...something "that you can't find on Google" . IANAL, but that's my guess.
11:37 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0) they need to keep "google" from being used generically to describe search Perhaps they should start closer to home:
Searches related to ungoogleable ungoogleable words ungoogleable quiz ungoogleable puzzles ungoogleable band names ungoogleable man ungoogleable pub quiz ungoogleable trivia ungoogleable riddles Source: google.com
...
11:57 pm on Mar 26, 2013 (gmt 0) Uh-oh. Does that mean one of these years they're going to stomp on me for using the phrase "not google-friendly"?
On the positive side: If your words for "search-friendly" or "searchable" don't include a mention of g###, then the term "search engine" (or Swedish equivalent, duh) remains in the language. There Exist Search Engines Other Than Google ;)
12:07 am on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) Bing results..169 000 results #1 Urban Dictionary: ungoogleable www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ungoogleable&defid=1283366
#2. ungoogleable a word, phrase, name, person, place, or thing that is unable to be found on google, which means that it probably doesn't exist or is so rare that ... Word Spy - ungoogleable www.wordspy.com/words/ungoogleable.asp
n. A person for whom no information appears in an Internet search engine, particularly Google. ?adj. Also: unGoogleable, ungooglable, unGoogle-able.
mine.."impossibility to bowl a cricket ball whose trajectory takes it along the ground, due to the the unevenness of the ground,( possibly caused by mountain view lawyers lying[sic?] in the way ) or to shoulder injury"
Wonders if the "bosses" at Google could currently "get over themselves", even with the aid of a Saturn 5 launch rocket..
2:26 am on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) 3:09 am on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) btw, I had to read the first post three times before it percolated into my head that "ogooglebar" is the actual Swedish word they're talking about. Led astray by the phonetic accident of "bar", obviously.
o = "un-" -bar = "-able", "-ible"
D'oh!
D'you suppose this will shortly be followed by similar stories from Norway and Denmark, replacing "o-" with "u-"? What about Germany?
Speakers of languages like English that don't have an Academy-- in any country-- are sitting pretty.
3:17 am on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) LIA will no doubt tell us it is also a nightclub in a NSFW district of the capital of Thailand..
added..is it not also the name for the part in Chrome where you type the search term ?
5:15 am on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) Ogooglebar is a traditional Swedish Christmas Carol.
(Loosely translated...)
Ogooglebar, Ogooglebar, How busy are your lawyers! My rankings suck in wintertime And still they fall in Panda time. Ogooglebar, Ogooglebar, How busy are your lawyers!
Ogooglebar, Ogooglebar, You can never please me! Your algo's bad when I rank low My links are spam when on blog rolls. Ogooglebar, Ogooglebar, You can never please me!
Ogooglebar, Ogooglebar, Matt Cutts can teach us lessons. I've lost the faith and hope sublime Since text link ads became a crime. Ogooglebar, Ogooglebar, Matt Cutts can teach us lessons.
9:23 am on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0)
they need to keep "google" from being used generically to describe search.
Did Hoover ever succeed regarding vacuum cleaners? 9:58 am on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) Did Hoover ever succeed regarding vacuum cleaners? Don't know.
Am I allowed to Bing it?
...
10:47 am on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) Did Hoover ever succeed regarding vacuum cleaners? Depends what country you're in, doesn't it. 11:18 pm on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) When Google does things like this it reminds me of "the brain" on TV, that kids show with the mouse that keeps plotting to rule the world. It never works out in the end. 1:00 am on Mar 28, 2013 (gmt 0) Pinky and the Brain.. You mean Larry and Sergey..Eric was added later by the ( producers / VCs ) money men..
"It never works out in the end" in the TV version..because they don't have "Eric"..in the real world ,with "Eric"..it's working out just fine..depending on your ( mountain)view point..
1:59 am on Mar 28, 2013 (gmt 0) It's a trademark issue. To protect their Google trademark, they need to keep "google" from being used generically to describe search.
Bing was running a major TV ad campaign using "don't get scroogled" at one point, now they've changed it to "Bing it on" with consumer "taste tests" as it were. Maybe they just don't want to tangle with Microsoft.
10:17 am on Mar 28, 2013 (gmt 0)
Censorship raises it's ugly head once again.
"Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy Gooogle in vain"
Give it a free reign and it soon becomes blasphemy.
Featured Home Page Discussion This 41 message thread spans 2 pages: 41 ( [1] 2 ) > > Google to Target "Bad Merchants" 5:13 pm on Mar 11, 2013 (gmt 0) Danny reported on a discussion at SXSW regarding Google working on an algorithm to find and demote "bad merchants". They don't give any specifics of course, but the general feeling is to look for signals beyond reviews, because there are so many fake reviews.
Matt Cutts says:
We have a potential launch later this year, maybe a little bit sooner, looking at the quality of merchants and whether we can do a better job on that, because we don?t want low quality experience merchants to be ranking in the search results.
Article here.
[searchengineland.com...]
Heads up.
7:20 pm on Mar 11, 2013 (gmt 0) With the pay-for-play Google Shopping now rolled out, I think this may well be the most controversial update ever. 7:29 pm on Mar 11, 2013 (gmt 0) if (adwords=='no') {merchant='bad'} 7:31 pm on Mar 11, 2013 (gmt 0)
if (adwords=='no') {merchant='bad'}
Yup. Was my first thought, too.
7:51 pm on Mar 11, 2013 (gmt 0) I'm thinking it's more if Google Trusted Store = no. 8:16 pm on Mar 17, 2013 (gmt 0) I've looked at the Trusted Store and everything about it stinks. There are a lot of requirements which your average 'great' store is not able to meet...ever... due to the way it works. Their definition of store is only a small portion of how people actually operate. 10:02 pm on Mar 17, 2013 (gmt 0) My guess is this is a tactic to get people to sign on for the "Google Trusted Store" program. As with "Google Product Search", it will be free at first, as the initial benefit is to Google. Once they have enough merchants hooked, the product will be sunset, and replaced with a paid program. 3:24 pm on Mar 19, 2013 (gmt 0) Once they have enough merchants hooked, the product will be sunset, and replaced with a paid program. Good call on that. 6:11 am on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) I'm sure my A+ BBB rating will have no bearing on the beating about to befall our site...again. 6:27 am on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) I contacted G the other day about this as my products are mainly downloaded rather than shipped. I'm pretty sure their response was copy/paste, but basically if you can't provide shipping info on most orders you don't even qualify for the program among many other requirements. There was, however, that classic G open ended comment along the lines of they 'may' change the program in the future.
Does this strike anyone else as odd that their program doesn't support downloadable products? I mean we are talking about the web/internet.
10:03 am on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) I think they'll gain less traction with this than g+. But honestly I don't think it matters to them, really just another tool to dilute the serps. 11:51 am on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) Another hurdle in the way for affiliate marketers? Will all affiliate marketing sites be labelled as 'Bad Merchants' in Google's eyes - except of course Google themselves? 12:17 pm on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) Trusted Stores is only available to US merchants at the moment so if "bad merchant" treatment is dished out elsewhere in the world before it's available to merchants elsewhere, we'll know that's not how they're identifying bad merchants.
Mind you, the requirements are quite stringent so if you qualify and maintain the standards over a long period of time it would add a lot of credibility to your business in Google's eyes. They'd be crazy not to factor that into the algo.
Some big brands struggle to provide the sort of personal service customers really want, but this is what small business is great at, so this could be a way for smaller businesses to fight back against big brands in the rankings.
I think they must have another method for identifying bad merchants, but it would make sense for them to boost rankings for sites with great Trusted Store ratings.
@ethought After looking at the 'Eligibility' section it looks pretty clear Google don't regard affiliates or drop shippers as 'trusted' merchants. The writing has been on the wall for years and the noose is tightening.
12:34 pm on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) Another hurdle in the way for affiliate marketers?
well, let's see, directly from the trusted store participation agreement:
Restrictions
No Affiliates, Drop-Ship Consolidators, or Multi-Level Marketers
Each Merchant participating in the Program must be the merchant and seller of record, meaning that the Merchant charges the customer?s credit card directly and ships or causes to be shipped the customer?s order. Drop-shipping is permitted, provided the Merchant is not working primarily through drop-ship consolidators or ready-made drop-shipping sites. Merchants bulk listing products fulfilled through drop-ship consolidators are prohibited. Multi-level marketing businesses are also prohibited, such as businesses that recruit members or offer rewards for recruiting others and/or selling services.
1:05 pm on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) I've had an e-commerce website for 6 years - sold tens of thousands of items to thousands of customers. I wonder - how do I prove that to Google? Hand over customer information? Do they do a test purchase from our site? 1:24 pm on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) If you're talking about the Google Trusted Store program, they require a feed of your orders and your shipping and your returns. And they give your customers the opportunity to give feedback on how you did.
If you're just saying in a general sense - we don't know what they'll be looking at yet. One thing that seems pretty obvious is that they'll be looking for fake reviews. What other things could they look at? Maybe how long you've been around, how "acccountable" you look - i.e. physical addresses, pictures/names of staff, whether you have a storefront. Large numbers of bad reviews? I'm not sure how that would work in conjunction with uncovering fake reviews, but *I* use it when I'm researching a new vendor, so seems like Google would to some degree. Social media presence? They can't really see much except for Google+, and none of my customers nor my clients customers are there.
Dunno. We'll just have to see.
2:25 pm on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) they require a feed of your orders and your shipping and your returns
That's interesting. The natural question is how much data will they need....names and addresses? Seems like a privacy problem if they want to dig too deep. I of course have that information, but my privacy policy is pretty standard - I don't hand over customer details to 3rd parties. Still, if Google ever cross that seemingly inevitable rubicon and demote non-Trusted Stores in Google's SERPs, or place a message in the SERPs along the lines of "[warning: not a member of our Trusted Store Program]" under non-member listings, then you can bet store owners will want to hand over as much customer info to Google as possible just to join the program and not go bust :(
2:33 pm on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) netmeg, as you know, in my other thread about the Merchant center recognizing my product feed as having problems. Is it possible that the warning we have just received about a large number of our products be tied into this? It might be a stretch, as I'm not sure if they issue these types of warnings all the time, it's just the first I've seen or heard of it. 2:36 pm on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) to clarify, I wonder if a lot of merchants are going to be recieving messages like this and if they've ramped up their manual inspections of feeds in order to crack down on incorrect product identifiers in order to find those who don't comply and mark them as 'bad merchants'. 2:47 pm on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) I doubt it. The product feeds are now tied to AdWords and they're still trying to maintain a clear distance between what happens with AdWords and what happens with organics.
(Yea, I know, lots of people don't believe that, but that's their lookout)
6:40 pm on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) If you're talking about the Google Trusted Store program, they require a feed of your orders and your shipping and your returns.
Umm.. that would be a violation of privacy.... and considering that Google has no real problem turning over information to the government, then there's a real problem.
Why would merchants be so willing to turn over order and customer information to a third party.
It's against our privacy policy and we wont do it.
6:52 pm on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) A roll out of this to the EU would not get past legislators here ..privacy, competition, restrictive trade practices, banking and finance regulations..etc etc ..
Plus IMO..( having read the TOS there ) anyone signing upto this elsewhere would need their heads examining..giving all that data to G ( with the distinct probability that they would use it to shaft you later ) ..in response to the thinly veiled threat of ..SERPs positions might depend on this..and non participation would result in lack of our "Google trusts this site" badge..
Reads like a protection racket.."bend over to be a "trusted" site ..or it may well go badly for you in the short term"..and in the long term they'll use it against you any way ..even if only to up the cost of your adwords..
7:34 pm on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) Well in the first place, they don't take any customer information unless the customer opts in (and even then it's just the email address and country) Everything else is specific to the order, the products, the quoted shipping date and the merchant.
The shipping and return feeds are also anonymous as far as the customers, and don't include any address information. Just the order number, the shipping company and the date. They take this to make sure you ship when you say you ship.
8:05 pm on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) Just the order number, the shipping company and the date. They take this to make sure you ship when you say you ship.
(my emphrasis)
Well again - interesting. I tend to use Royal Mail (I'm in the UK) because my parcels are small. There is no "record" of such deliveries unless you choose recorded delivery which is significantly more expensive when you're sending out dozens of parcels a day. A lot of e-sellers use Royal Mail in this way. I'm sure most countries have a standard mailing setup like Royal Mail that allows for low-cost shipping. I guess it's another step toward "officialdom" where we will have to spend more on shipping just to have a paper-trail just to please Google.
[edited by: ColourOfSpring at 8:06 pm (utc) on Mar 20, 2013]
8:06 pm on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) netmeg :)
That is still more information than would be legal for them to have about your customers if they ran this in the EU..
And as regards EU customers purchasing from US sites ( even if the customer "opts in" ) ..Google would still have to apply for ( and get registration approval ) before being able to hold this kind of EU customers data..yes even just email and physical address..precisely because the customer is not purchasing directly from G..
Rules are much stricter her e about who can know what and who can do what ( thankfully ) than they are in the USA..Google would probably also have to register as a credit organisation ( and be subject to the various financial services acts etc of EU member states ) in order to be able to offer their "money back" part of the deal..
IMO G will not try to roll this out in the EU..
They would not want to have to comply with all the legislation ( consumer, competition, financial services, insurance , credit, banking services etc )..and first time any EU customer ( even one who may have signed up ) has a problem with Google as a result of any of this..the pitfalls for G will be come self evident..
I would expect that EU companies ( not being eligible to "sign up" ) will also shout if they appear lower in serps ..or if the lack of G's "badge of trust" in serps appears to affect their business..
I often wonder if Larry, Sergey and Eric ( or their lawyers ) truly understand the cultural and legal differences between the USA and the rest of the world..
It frequently appears that they do not..or if they do..that they do not take them seriously enough..not every legislator can be lobb^^^^ought off..not in the EU anyway..
MS and Apple and other US corps appear to have a similar "comprehension" problem when viewing or dealing with the world outside of the USA..
8:17 pm on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) Well in the first place, they don't take any customer information unless the customer opts in (and even then it's just the email address and country) Everything else is specific to the order, the products, the quoted shipping date and the merchant.
netmeg, just realised....I guess that would mean having a tickbox on your checkout page along the lines of "can we pass on your email address to Google?" - I can't imagine a lot of people ticking that, and might even put people off buying (as a shopper, that would seem absolutely unnecessary from my - the shopper's - perspective).
IMO G will not try to roll this out in the EU..
I agree. One good thing about the EU is that's it's curtailed so much of Google's invasiveness in Europe.
8:27 pm on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) More along the lines of "if you want to give us feedback about your transaction with this site, sign up here" I think.
Google has plenty of lawyers all over the world, and if it doesn't pass EU legal muster, then they won't roll it out in the EU. So far anyway, there's no promise of better SERPs whether you have it or don't, and nobody's being forced into it. But from what I've seen, they're not having too much trouble getting US vendors to sign up.
8:37 pm on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) Google has plenty of lawyers all over the world, and if it doesn't pass EU legal muster, then they won't roll it out in the EU. Not to drag the thread off topic ..but just to say ..privacy / street view / driveby wi-fi recording /EU ongoing investigations..G's lawyers in the EU are not doing too good a job avoiding trouble for them to date..
And that is just the brief list..it actually is much bigger..so is the list of MS and other US corps errors vis a vis EU laws and culture..
So much easier to not walk into the minefield than to try to get out of it once you are in there..
So far anyway, there's no promise of better SERPs whether you have it or don't, and nobody's being forced into it. But from what I've seen, they're not having too much trouble getting US vendors to sign up. I suspect the message from G about "not being trusted by G" is subtle enough , not to be easily seen as "forcing"..iron fist , velvet glove...US . merchants will be reading between the lines..
8:47 pm on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) G's lawyers in the EU are not doing to good a job avoiding trouble for them to date.. And yet, they still get paid. Nice racket.
Marshall
9:21 pm on Mar 20, 2013 (gmt 0) I suspect the message from G about "not being trusted by G" is subtle enough , not to be easily seen as "forcing"..iron fist , velvet glove...US . merchants will be reading between the lines..
Leosghost, like any agent with power, they don't need to be explicit. A bouncer just has to stand by a door - the implication of his role is made simply by his size and his position near the door.
Question: how often do Google reassure us little webmasters with our concerns (esp. since Panda and Penguin roll-outs)? Never. There is an overwhelming cloud hanging over every website owner that relies on Google (i.e. most websites, sadly), and Google do nothing to calm those fears. In fact, they thrive off it. Their guidelines are more a list of warnings than recommendations. GWT really IS a list of warnings and alarms to make you paranoid. Purely from a business perspective, I do not blame Google for maximising this kind of leverage.
In regards to the data that Google would require for this program, they would obviously benefit from that kind of data enormously - yes, it proves a vendor is sending out the goods, but...come on - an email address + country + order details = very very useful information for a company whose sole job is to turn that kind of valuable data into profits.
Discuss the premium home pageGoogle says, Google News is a non-marketing services On March 28, 2013 (gmt 0) at 5: 51 pm Well, that was on him in Google News.
Be careful, it'll hit me.
Google News violates our quality guidelines and marketing services when we have to use this kind of promotional strategies, consider an article.
Remember, just like Google search, Google News, quality guidelines violation takes action on the site. Engaged in fraudulent or promotional tactics such as the above articles, or even the entire publication, may be removed from Google News.
Site news content affiliates, promotional, advertorial, mix, marketing materials (for your company, or anyone else), we strongly recommend other non-news content directory, or if you remove a host is blocked on my robots.txt crawl only news articles on Google News Sitemap. Otherwise, we learn the news content and promotional content mix, we are not A Google News Google News.Google, marketing services [googlenewsblog.blogspot.co.uk] can be excluded from the entire publication.
On March 28, 2013 (gmt 0) 9: 08 pm > Site mixes news content partnerships, advertorial, or marketing materials, promotions
ER ... For example, a newspaper like?
The company from their servers to eliminate all possible Web sites seem to be intent on. I'm glad I don't rely on them anymore.
albo
msg:4559348
On March 28, 2013 at 9: 17 pm (gmt 0) Dstiles-Google as part of their "clean-up" in the "search" feature to uninstall? On March 29, 2013 (GMT 0) 4: 21 pm Google some of the guidelines and they instead they are forbidden for you want to see the vague language for an example of be would lay down if it is a good thing.
Product launch news or marketing materials? Company merger news or PR? Upcoming IPO news or marketing vehicle to sell a stock? Press release news or marketing materials? The announcement of a new AdWords feature news or marketing materials?
On March 29, 2013 (GMT 0) 4: 42 pm Google has a few instructions and they will ban you for vague language instead, wants to see an example of it would be nice if that would lay it down Why are they so far as well;) Served the will to break the habit
My grandmother used to say. .. "They can knit the fog had money from it if they are thinking" ...
On March 29, 2013 (GMT 0) 7: 19 pm «How to get rid of the competition for a vague policy background as one of the best. I asked Yelp. On March 29, 2013 (GMT 0) 8: 06 am Albo-I doubt it: they just pretended that they already have scratched it's new data. :)
Featured Home Page DiscussionIs Facebook Pushing Developers Into Paying For Participation 12:30 pm on Mar 19, 2013 (gmt 0) Is Facebook only pushing competing apps into the long grass, or is this a wider move to earn from developers?
Last month in Paris, developer Antoine Morcos received an unexpected email: Facebook Inc. said it was cutting ties with his photo-sharing application, Vintage Camera.
Mr. Morcos, 31 years old, instantly lost nearly half a million registered users who only accessed Vintage Camera through the social-networking site. Facebook, without being specific, said too many users had complained about Vintage Camera, said Mr. Morcos. He appealed, arguing his app fielded less than three complaints for every 1,000 photos shared, but Facebook didn't budge.
"I was really shocked," Mr. Morcos said. "Users were sharing as much as 6,000 photos per day on Facebook; now access is blocked."
Vintage Camera, which competes with Facebook's Instagram app, is one of a growing number of third-party apps that have been blocked by the social network recently.Is Facebook Pushing Developers Into Paying For Participation [online.wsj.com]
Developers say the crackdown is an attempt to stifle applications that compete with Facebook-owned services or part of an effort to get developers to pay for ads on Facebook. 12:38 pm on Mar 19, 2013 (gmt 0) And the surprise is ..?
Social media is just another name for "someone else's website"..basing your business on your pace on "someone else's website" is naive/stupid..
1:03 pm on Mar 19, 2013 (gmt 0) Amen Leosghost. A lesson to be learned here there is. 1:10 pm on Mar 19, 2013 (gmt 0) His business is not based on Facebook, he just has Facebook sharing built into his app. He has lost only half a million out of 7 million users.
As its an app that relies on the Apple Appstore for distribution he will lose the rest only when Apple launches an Instagram like app.
4:01 pm on Mar 21, 2013 (gmt 0) Its sad that all of that hard work went down the toilet, but it sounds like a very naive approach to building a business. I mean FB, really?
Featured Home Page DiscussionLinux User Group Files Complaint To E.U. Over Microsoft Windows 8 2:44 pm on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) A Spanish association representing open-source software users has filed a complaint against Microsoft Corp to the European Commission, in a new challenge to the Windows developer following a hefty fine earlier this month.
The 8,000-member Hispalinux, which represents users and developers of the Linux operating system in Spain, said Microsoft had made it difficult for users of computers sold with its Windows 8 platform to switch to Linux and other operating systems. Linux User Group Files Complaint To E.U. Over Microsoft Windows 8 [reuters.com]
In its 14-page complaint, Hispalinux said Windows 8 contained an "obstruction mechanism" called UEFI Secure Boot that controls the start-up of the computer and means users must seek keys from Microsoft to install another operating system.
3:32 pm on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) Good Had someone buy a desktop with 8 installed from Best Buy could not get it off the machine to install 7. Thinking it was my lack of knowledge I called Best Buy. They said it was easy so I said OK took it to them. After an hour or so they came back and said it wasn't posible to wipe it and install another OS. I then took it to another expert and after he called MS he was told the same information. I could still be wrong, but from this I suppose I am not. 4:01 pm on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) You can install other OS's side by side with win8..or wipe it and put win 7 or whatever ..but it is a nightmare compared to doing it with machines prior to win8.and if you are not careful you can brick the machines..
sevencubed is currently wrestling with win8 ( I can't find his last post about it at the moment though) and installing other stuff..
MS have made it as difficult as they possibly could to install anything ( even win7 ) over or next to win8..
4:03 pm on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) I know we've come across that problem here, but it's not impossible to do, but apparently it's not straight-forward.
IT bought a load of machines that turned out to be Windows 8, and since the rest of us are still on 7, each had to have 7 installed on it.
It took the junior techie lad a couple of hours to get everything working per machine, but from the looks of it, there were a number of specific steps that needed to be followed, and if anything was missed, bad things happened (his first attempt).
So, definitely not as easy as formatting the disk and installing something new, but then again if MS have changed how the machine boots, then I wouldn't expect it to work as it always has done.
4:24 pm on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) Here is a link to SevenCubed's thread about this issue.
Hello World [webmasterworld.com]
8:09 pm on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) IMO it's kind of silly as most computers these days are sold as an appliance. You don't buy a TV and complain it's Linux vs Windows or a tablet or phone and complain it's iOS vs Android for that matter, it's an appliance. Hand full of nerds care that those computers can't be reloaded and the rest of the world doesn't give a squat but MS will be punished anyway as the needs of the few will make the needs of the many suffer.
If Linus usage and adoption at the desktop was a big deal these machines would come ready to install it or they would even have it pre-installed. Wait, isn't Apple's OSX linux based? THEN USE AN APPLE! Can you even re-install some other OS on an Apple?
There are plenty of sources where you can buy computers built from scratch with no OS until it's loaded and they aren't these appliance machines being sold at Best Buy.
Next thing you know people will complain that their toaster doesn't come capable of making Cylon toast out of the box.
Sheesh.
[edited by: incrediBILL at 8:13 pm (utc) on Mar 27, 2013]
8:11 pm on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) There are plenty of sources where you can buy computers built from scratch with no OS until it's loaded and they aren't these appliance machines being sold at Best Buy. Not in Europe ..and more especially Spain..where the complaint has been raised..
Sounds like something a terminator would munch..
Apple is UNIX based as you ought to know ..not linux based..
[edited by: Leosghost at 8:15 pm (utc) on Mar 27, 2013]
8:14 pm on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) Sounds like an opportunity for some business in Spain or the UK to step up and market to the Linux crowd as there's money to be made but it's obviously not profitable or someone would already be doing it.
Legislation is hardly the answer here as any little computer shop with a bunch of boards from China can slap a Linux box together in about an hour.
8:18 pm on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) Not a question of marketing to..question of retail space costs at B&M..( waaaaay too expensive to set up a "bespoke" box retail outlet..even on line due to EU postal rates ) and MS threatening any supplier/ manufacturer, who they deal with who also offers linux..
Some "mom and pop" shops do build "bare machines"..but the shipping rates mean that they don't / can't sell outside of their immediate area..
Most linux users ( moi, par example ;) build our own boxen..from scratch..even the ones that we are going to use windows on..
Try shopping ( even on line, in EU or maybe even the USA ? ) for a laptop that isn't preloaded with either windows or mac..
8:27 pm on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) We have little Asian computer outlets all over the place and they operate in little office parks in tiny little shops. It's just a big room full of Chinese computer parts and you place an order and an hour later it's built to spec and MS hasn't got squat to do with it and it's not a big retail outlet, it's like a counter in a TV repair shop.
I used to get all sorts of custom machines built that way in the past until the commercial appliance computers finally caught up with the hardware specs I required.
If the EU and postal issues are the problem, address the real problem and leave the appliance computer vendors out of it.
Like I said, if there was any money to be made selling Linux boxes someone would do it including the big box stores. Walmart actually experimented with a really cheap Ubuntu box for a while and the thing flew off the shelves it was so cheap but I don't think it's available anymore for whatever reason.
I'm thinking they should move to Asia where I think China just declared Linus the national operating system :)
8:33 pm on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) You forgot ..MS strong arm the manufacturers into not offering bare machines..especially laptops ( which your little "Asian outlets" don't make )..and until win8..no one had a problem putting another OS onto a pre loaded win box..
I've set up loads of winboxen ( towers and laptops ) with Linux as dual boot..was easy ..until win8 ..now it can be done ( I have done so, a few times recently ) but for your average "installer tech" they now risk "bricking it" ..and that is what MS intended..make them leave it alone out of fear of breaking it..
Like I said, if there was any money to be made selling Linux boxes someone would do it including the big box stores. Walmart actually experimented with a really cheap Ubuntu box for a while and the thing flew off the shelves it was so cheap but I don't think it's available anymore for whatever reason.
Gave you the reason above..pressure from MS..either directly or via the box shifters suppliers .."offer that, and you can't offer ours, and over 90% of your customers are looking for ours, because we have the ad budgets to get them asking for it"..
8:43 pm on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) Actually my little Asian outlets did make laptops and I used to rent them when I traveled back when they were too expensive to own just for a few trips. Remember the little Asian shops just stocked motherboards, power supplies and cases and assembled them to spec, whether tower or laptop unless the laptops came pre-assembled as I didn't watch them do it.
Regardless, I should point out I use Linux servers and Windows desktops and laptops, plus a pile of Android devices so I have no real allegiance to any specific platform except to use what I find appropriate for the task at hand.
If I needed a Linux box I sure as heck wouldn't buy a Windows machine in the first place but that's just me, I'd get a blank machine and load it myself.
9:04 pm on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) Regardless, I should point out I use Linux servers and Windows desktops and laptops, plus a pile of Android devices so I have no real allegiance to any specific platform except to use what I find appropriate for the task at hand. ditto :)
Unless the laptops came pre-assembled as I didn't watch them do it. doubtless they did..:) very very few "blank" laptops around..that were / are reliable :)
The people who ask me to put linux on their winboxen are definitely not upto "self build"..( mainly older people who's family have bought them a machine to keep in touch and look at pics of the grandchildren etc ) and they are usually laptops..for their use a good tablet with a decent keyboard would be better IMO..but MS don't make one of those either..not for sensible price..so there are a selection of ishiny things and some android slabs..I leave them "as is " and show them how to do the basics..
I don't charge for that kind of thing..I'm just the guy who can make computers work whose wife works with /takes care of the old folks / Alzheimer patients..:)
9:17 pm on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) I used to do computer stuff for people too.
They showed up at my door bearing six packs of beer and some nerdly hardware I'd never seen before like the first touch screen monitor, a packet radio modem, all sorts of wacky stuff but I digress.
I would probably draw the line at reloading an OS as I don't even like to do that myself and I used to work in the HD/Tape industry and wrote and tested drivers and backup software all day long.
I like the appliance computer where you plug it in, it works until it breaks, you plug in the replacement and it works. Your dual boot Frankencomputers take away that simplicity from those using them as it's not dual boot out of the box.
As a matter of fact, the Android app model is going to win over the marketplace because you don't have to even remember what apps to reload, and your contacts and data download from the cloud automatically, opposed to reinstalling Window and Linux software so their model is closer to the appliance model than all of this but I digress.
9:25 pm on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) Most of my people can hardly walk..if they can ..some are bedridden..I go to them..
Hopefully if I get that way there'll be someone like me around..brought my son up to "help out" so there should be..
We digressed :)
10:04 pm on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) Seems crazy to complain that you bought a piece of consumer electronics and found it difficult to change out the preinstalled operating system. I can't easily change out the OS on my Samsung phone, even though I'd love to get a later Android version. Getting rid of the Verizon and Samsung crapware would be great, too.
My Samsung home theater box is similarly resistant to OS changes, even though I'd love to change it to one that handled an Amazon Prime app.
I used to be in the computer biz, and for a while a big part of it was building PCs. We'd buy "barebones" boxes from Asia and build to order. I expected that business to die a lot sooner than it did, as it made no sense that I could pay people to hand-assemble and configure computers and beat companies like Dell on price. Eventually, as IncrediBill notes, they finally became appliances with no need for customization.
I'm sure if the big makers could sell a million or two Linux boxes, they'd happily start cranking them out. A few have tried over the years, but sales were terrible.
Now, the market is shifting toward tablets, which promise even less of an opportunity to customize.
10:28 pm on Mar 27, 2013 (gmt 0) Now, the market is shifting toward tablets, which promise even less of an opportunity to customize.
Exactly.
Modern desktop consumer grade computers are being designed the same way as these people selling them aren't in the OS tech support business and those machines are appliances designed to aid the consumer into using it as painlessly as possible without helping them change it do something they didn't intend it to be in the first place.
While I can sympathize with those that want something else, don't make these companies suffer because you don't want what they're selling. That's frankly just too bad.
Band together and show you have some financial power and get some big box company to start stocking Ubuntu boxes or something because TBH the Linux consumer market to date is completely hidden from site of the manufacturers because you buy a different product and covert it.
Sorry, converting it is no longer an option so you need to tell them how many boxes your group will buy and figure out how to get them delivered to those wanting to buy them.
Money talks and the rest is just nonsense.
Before anyone slays me on this I've been in this biz longer than possibly anyone on this board getting into electronics as a teen in the mid 70s due to an Uncle that worked at TI and got my first computer in '78 and for many years loaded the OS, whichever OS I wanted and I had several, off a floppy at a whim and I also had dual boot drives and removable HDs with different OS per drive, etc. so I'm not exactly out of touch with the plight of the people in this situation but in this day and age, especially for machines for oldsters, it's a pretty level playing field as my mom is as blind as a bat in her late 80s with macular degeneration and I set her Windows box up with super big fonts and icons the size of trees with MAIL, INTERNET, etc. across the screen and all the software enlarged to the max and she's good to go forwarding me all the humor mail and links to humor sites that old blind people forward.
12:15 am on Mar 28, 2013 (gmt 0) Before anyone slays me on this I've been in this biz longer than possibly anyone on this board getting into electronics as a teen in the mid 70s Slay ..? no ..why would any one of us crotchety older folks ..be nasty to one of the "young 'uns" :).. Began this stuff in 74 ( waaaaay later than many ) with punch cards and fortran and cobol..
That said ..bear in mind..
There are some ( and especially some ladies ) here who who have been in this longer than me or thee..but for the ladies..and thee or me .."who can piss further up the wall of time" is not good for our dignity..and will make our zimmers rusty as all hell ..and nurse may well confine us to our rooms...;)..as incontenent whippersnappers ..
12:25 am on Mar 28, 2013 (gmt 0) Thanks for the Original Post. I didn't know it was a potential problem to get rid of 8.
The simplest basis the EU can use to act on I guess is the abuse of monopoly. MSFT has been convicted to pay record breaking fines before. It's just yet another examples of the same. This time not browsers or media players, but now it's the hardware itself that get's locked in. Pity it'll take far too long to have any decent effect.
(Mac) OS X is FreeBSD derived - it's got nothing to do with Linux. [GNU license vs. BSD license]
Buying a "wintel" computer you intend to use under alternative OSes without windows coming along is terribly hard as the hardware is bundled with windows per Microsoft's deal with the manufacturer. Regardless what the chain of distribution and retail does: it's bundled at the source already. The manufacturer is not allowed to offer it to you without windows - or they risk to lose the lucrative discounts they get for bundling it with *all* they sell to consumers. This is where the (illegal in the EU) abuse of monopoly occurs. So even if you try real ahrd, you'll not get a discount -not even a penny- for not wanting the windows license.
Servers typically are still available exempt from the bundling deal - I've to yet to buy any with a windows license. But it sometimes does limit choice. I typically run my servers under OpenBSD.
Mom-and-pop places building computers: all I know out here went out of business a few years ago when the discount supermarkets began to sell "PCs" without any form of support or after sales care for less than the mom-and-pop places could procure either pre-build asian sweat-shop stuff or -even worse- components. Let alone that they needed to give decent support and build/configure it all to be actually usable. I had a friend owning such a store: they saw their sales drop, got people expecting support on hardware they bought elsewhere but were unwilling/unable to pay for the support, so they let the shop phase out - there was no way to make a profit anymore. It also coincided with the price drop of laptops to be affordable enough to be favored over the old fied machines. It's also the same time I -and many like me- stopped giving PC support to friends and family: it became a bottomless pit. People just trash perfectly good hardware cause they can't fix the software problems - or more common: use employer provided hardware for personal use as well.
Obviously those folks not having an employer provided machine they're allowed to use for private stuff migrate to things like a iPad: why bother with a machine they cannot find support for (for free nor for pay), nor are able to service it themselves. If they bought it, it would just become "e-waste" in a matter of a few months.
Any of my friends or family that wants/gets support: they have a mac - "I don't do windows" is the mantra they get for any windows related issue. I don't even look at it or they'll assume I'm going to help them and won't stop demanding ever more. Paying customers can get me to cover their windows machines - but they pay for it.
1:03 pm on Mar 28, 2013 (gmt 0) US citizens can file a complaint with the Justice Department's anti-trust division here: [justice.gov...]
I did and received an email from two attorneys. One of them is the same attorney who headed the previous anti-trust court case in the '90s.
I also emailed my two congressmen. I figured I'd just get some canned response but, interestingly, they were VERY aware of the situation and even said it was a topic of conversation in their office.
1:10 pm on Mar 28, 2013 (gmt 0) Seems crazy to complain that you bought a piece of consumer electronics and found it difficult to change out the preinstalled operating system. The difference is being able to buy computer hardware separate from the operating system and the operating system preventing or blocking competitors from being installed. Remember that you are buying computer hardware and not necessarily the operating system that came with it. And since the Microsoft and Windows are a monopoly on the desktop, this smacks of anti-trust which is where the EU is stepping in and, possibly, the US Justice Department.
With regards to phones, no one phone monopolizes that market and when you buy a phone you are also buying the service and the software to run it. As I said before, with desktop computers you don't always want or need to buy the operating system which is sold by a separate company.
2:46 pm on Mar 28, 2013 (gmt 0) So, does that mean Apple's dominant iPad should allow easy installation of Android or Windows? Once a product becomes a consumer commodity, manufacturers don't find it attractive to allow lots of tinkering by customers. They will incorporate features (like a Linux OS or touchscreen) when there's enough demand to allow a thoroughly tested product to be sold in quantity.
PCs are well past the hobbyist stage as far as major producers are concerned. There are still some firms and parts distributors who cater to the tinkering set, though they won't have the economies of scale of an Apple or Dell.
5:55 pm on Mar 28, 2013 (gmt 0) Remember that you are buying computer hardware and not necessarily the operating system that came with it
Actually that's no the case at all because it says with on the box Windows 8 which is what you're buying just like when you get an Apple you're buying OSX.
It's an appliance and like I said before if the number of nerds reloading the machine with an OS had enough clout, and weren't hiding behind voiding the warranty on a Windows appliance, then you might find some vendor selling Linux boxes in those electronics supermarkets but instead people would rather complain to the DOJ instead of putting their money where their mouth is an putting up a site to find out help establish the size of the potential customer base.
Desktop schmesktop, it's an appliance for %99.9999 of the population that need a pug and play device, just like the tablet and the phone. Sure I can install software on both, I can install apps on my TV too, but I don't buy something with X and expect it to work with Y and then pitch fits when it doesn't.
What we're talking about here is the same as gear heads that buy a car and replace the engine except MS trying to defeat some vulnerability issues has figured out a way to stop you from removing the engine.
Like I said before, I understand your plight but don't mess with what works for the rest of the world and make your financial buying power known to hardware vendors instead of throwing temper tantrums to elected officials. Sheesh.
You can buy machines preloaded with Linux, here's a small list of vendors like SaReason: [smallbusinesscomputing.com...]
Dell sells pre-loaded with Linux: [dell.com...]
HP claims to have Linux for their desktops: [h71028.www7.hp.com...]
Vote with your wallet.
Yeah yeah, I know, those aren't the cheapo computers in the big box store well sometimes you can't always get what you want according to the Rolling Stones.
6:24 pm on Mar 28, 2013 (gmt 0) More to the point none of those vendors sell those machines preloaded in Spain..and the complaint ( subject of the thread ) is about what is happening in Spain..You know ..the Spain in Europe ..
What company x, y or z sells or claims to sell in the USA..has nothing to do with it..
6:34 pm on Mar 28, 2013 (gmt 0) What we're talking about here is the same as gear heads that buy a car and replace the engine except MS trying to defeat some vulnerability issues has figured out a way to stop you from removing the engine Far better simile would be that you buy the car ( hardware ) which has been rigged to work with one kind of petrol ( software )..due to pressure on the hardware company by one software company..
Imagine if 90% all cars ( Ford, GM, Toyota , BMW, VW etc ) you could buy in one country came preloaded with exxon petrol..and that in order to run any other brand ( you could adjust the engine..not change it ..remember the engine is hardware )..to run on other brands of petrol..but exxon had strong armed each car manufacturer to say that if you did tweak your carb to run using non exxon petrol..then the cars guarantee would be voided..
6:26 pm on Mar 31, 2013 (gmt 0) The whole point about computers is that they are programmable: i.e. NOT just an appliance.
As for tablets and phones, they do not do anything to make it easy to install another OS, but they do not add a special mechanism to stop you doing it either. They have no obligation to make it easy to install another OS, but going out of their way to make it more difficult in another matter altogether.
